I am not sure if this has been discussed before, but.....
We at CAPOF are fortunate to have some great talent ed people / machinist here.
I was wondering why someone here couldn't make up a CNC program or use their manual abilities to
make up some 13xx SS Tubes. I am not a machinist, but I have looked at the 13xx tubes and it doesn't look like it would
be that difficult to reproduce.
Is there something I am missing? Is anyone up for the challenge?
I am sure if several were produce at one time the labor cost (time) would be reduced and I am not sure,
but I would think the SS tubing could be ordered with the right I.D. and wall thickness.
Something to keep in our discussions, I would love to here comments about doing something like this. :-*
Hey Walt, glad to see you back from the rear echelons, those Navy docs >:( didn't poke you too much did they? :D
Your concept is exactly right... those tubes are just a few cross-drills, mill slots and face the ends. Seamless 302 stainless tube is available all over the place, might even find the I.D. ready to go and O.D. could be machined in a blink o' the eye.
302 polishes up like chrome too :-*
FYI on milling stainless steel:
"Rules for Machining Stainless Steels
Some general rules apply to most machining of stainless steels:
• 1. The machine tool must be sturdy, have sufficient power and be free from vibration.
• 2. The cutting edge must be kept sharp at all times. Dull tools cause glazing and work hardening of the surface. Sharpening must be carried out as soon as the quality of the cut deteriorates. Sharpening should be by machine grinding using suitable fixtures, as free-hand sharpening does not give consistent and long-lasting edges. Grinding wheels must be dressed and not contaminated.
• 3. Light cuts should be taken, but the depth of the cut should be substantial enough to prevent the tool from riding the surface of the work - a condition which promotes work hardening.
• 4. All clearances should be sufficient to prevent the tool from rubbing on the work.
• 5. Tools should be as large as possible to help to dissipate the heat.
• 6. Chip breakers or chip curlers prevent the chips from being directed into the work.
• 7. Constant feeds are most important to prevent the tool from riding on the work.
• 8. Proper coolants and lubricants are essential. The low thermal conductivity of austenitic stainless alloys causes a large percentage of the generated heat to be concentrated at the cutting edges of the tools. Fluids must be used in sufficient quantities and directed so as to flood both the tool and the work."
from:
http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?Articleid=1178#_Rules_for_Machining (http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?Articleid=1178#_Rules_for_Machining)
#7 and #8 pretty much dictates enclosed CNC machines with flood coolant systems.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWn4BNvwtp0#ws]Taig CNC milling machine flood cooling[/url]
Quote from: BDS on November 20, 2012, 05:56:31 PM
Hey Walt, glad to see you back from the rear echelons, those Navy docs >:( didn't poke you too much did they? :D
Your concept is exactly right... those tubes are just a few cross-drills, mill slots and face the ends. Seamless 302 stainless tube is available all over the place, might even find the I.D. ready to go and O.D. could be machined in a blink o' the eye.
302 polishes up like chrome too :-*
Okay then BDS.......When are you going to make a couple for you and I? ;) :) :) :) :) :) :)
I sure as heck don't have the ability (or the machinery) to do it. :D
If you could make some, I would be more then happy to help pay for your time and knowledge. :-*
Send me a PM if you would like to discuss this more or would be interested. Thanks for your response.
Oh, and BTW, I had a Civilian Ortho-Surgeon do my shoulder. (Even though it's Service-Connected)
I really didn't want VA knifing on me. My Dr. is a very talented surgeon, so it wasn't a hard choice to make.
Plus, he has a lot of respect for Vets and tends to go above and beyond when caring for them. He will be
doing my neck next year. :-*
there was a guy named chevell awhile back that made his own 1377 tube iirc
his posts are on the green forum.he made a 900fps+ long stroke 1377
don cothran also made some stainless steel 1377 tubes for pacificpelletguns before darren absconded with peoples funds
the stainless steel tubes available had to be opened up because the inside diameter was too small
more work than known needs to be done but it is possible enen by a guy with no machining tools
you have to find chevells posts on the green to appreciate what can be done with determination
Bump for more conversation.
Someone should be able to make a few? :-*
Can someone give up some specs for the tube.. inside dia., outside dia. etc? I will start to source it and also have a NASA connection if needed.
Chong... when you get 13XX dims, here's McMaster Carr 304 SS seamless tube link to compare to http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-metal-tubing/=k8ymhb (http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-metal-tubing/=k8ymhb)
304 shines up like chrome too :-*
Quote from: chongman on November 20, 2012, 07:46:03 PM
Can someone give up some specs for the tube.. inside dia., outside dia. etc? I will start to source it and also have a NASA connection if needed.
Chongman, That would be
"out of this world" if you could make it happen. ;D
Seriously, That would be so cool, I would be in for a few. :-* :-*
Maybe we could get them
milled to except the P-Rod Trigger group, I have one (1389 Backpacker Tube) that was done by 1377x, that I could furnish as a template / model. (Of course you would have to mod or use another hammer).
heres one take on it
http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/message/1151699514/stainless+extended+pumptube+for+1377 (http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/message/1151699514/stainless+extended+pumptube+for+1377)
the best bet would be to contact don c and ask him how many tubes would need to be ordered to do a run
found some more
http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/message/1195314306/Re-+Chevell+what+grade+of+stainless (http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/message/1195314306/Re-+Chevell+what+grade+of+stainless)
Is this what we might need? ??? ???
Thanks for the link. I have a 1389 tube loose. I might just put a mic on it today.
Type 304 stainless steel has good corrosion resistance for an economical alternative to Type 316.
Type 316 stainless steel contains more nickel and has molybdenum for better resistance to corrosion than Type 304.
Straight Lengths 1 ft. & 3 ft.
Tolerance Max. psi
Gauge OD Wall ID @ 72° F Each 1LF Each 3LF
Type 304 Stainless Steel
14.5 0.078" 0.008" 0.063" ±0.001" 3,000 8988K291 $9.02 8988K293 $23.14
Type 316 Stainless Steel
14.5 0.078" 0.008" 0.063" ±0.001" 3,000 89875K181 16.26 89875K182 41.69
I'm excited to see the interest for SS 13xx tubes generating again.
The last DC one we had going went bye-bye.
If we convince DC that we would be buying his breeches, safeties, triggers etc....to go with the tubes, that might be a Deal Maker. :-*
(But we have too get them milled to except the P-Rod trigger set-up) :-*
closed mouths dont get fed
we need to know how many tubes would be needed to do a run the rest of the stuff he stocks
even though i have no interest in a stainless steel 1377 i'll ask
dc is a business man as long as the stuff is/will be paid for nothing else should matter
Quote from: 1377x on November 20, 2012, 10:39:46 PM
closed mouths dont get fed
we need to know how many tubes would be needed to do a run the rest of the stuff he stocks
even though i have no interest in a stainless steel 1377 i'll ask
dc is a business man as long as the stuff is/will be paid for nothing else should matter
Ah, come on ED......Sure you would like just 1 stainless steel 13xx. ??? ;D ;)
I think it would be COOL.
Say maybe a, Shiny SS 1325 with a polished M-Rod Trigger Frame a DC SS Breech. :-*
thats sounds good when you put it that way
maybe after i get some strength and stamina back then i'll think about another pumper
i just dont like the take 5 shots and sleep for 4 hours afterwards to recover from the pumping ;) ;D
Quote from: 1377x on November 21, 2012, 07:55:42 AM
thats sounds good when you put it that way
maybe after i get some strength and stamina back then i'll think about another pumper
i just dont like the take 5 shots and sleep for 4 hours afterwards to recover from the pumping ;) ;D
;D
You can count me in for two if this ever moves forward!
i contacted don c now its just a waiting game. if i dont hear from him in a few days, given turkey day is near i really dont expect much movement right now,i'll try contacting him again
if i had a tube to work with i would take it to a cnc machine shop i ran across the other day
once i get these drawings for the p-rod trigger i'm going to run them by there also
Quote from: 1377x on November 21, 2012, 10:33:31 AM
i contacted don c now its just a waiting game. if i dont hear from him in a few days, given turkey day is near i really dont expect much movement right now,i'll try contacting him again
if i had a tube to work with i would take it to a cnc machine shop i ran across the other day
once i get these drawings for the p-rod trigger i'm going to run them by there also
ED, let me know if you need me to send the 1389 tube you did for me.
(It ALSO had your extra grinding for the: M-ROOD TRIGGER FRAME TOO.)
Let's keep this one alive guys. :-*
don hasnt e-mailed me back yet but i have his number i will try calling him monday given todays black friday i a m guessing a lot of people are out shopping
You would, definitely have a market for these SS pump tubes. Maybe for somebody doing a PCP conversion or something they'd be very desirable. And you always have people that just want the very best on their 13xx so they might go for it too.
A replacement pump tube from Crosman in steel, is $11. Before manufacturing a whole bunch with intent to sell them, at what price point can you keep such a product where a lot of people would want to buy it, would be my question if i were doing it. I'm not saying a lot of people wouldn't want it - because they would. But we are talking about a $60 gun and your tube maybe couldn't really cost a lot more then that for the whole venture to be viable.
You bring up a valid point, how much will it cost to make the tube and what are people willing to pay for it. To compare the cost of the tube to the cost of the gun is really not a factor when you consider other modifications that get applied, steel breech, optics, wood furniture, etc.
The current price of a Don Cothran stainless steel 2240 tube is $41.80. A 13xx tube should cost more than that due to length and the machining required.
they are not cheap i can tell you that and the demand is very low
thats why im trying to get the how much per tube and how many needs to be made to get that price
talked to don cothran today
1377 tubes are going to be made
he needs to make some jigs for milling the slots and some others needed to complete the tubes
he also said he sets a couple days a week aside for airgun stuff but it doesnt put food on the table so his other accounts take priority
but just so you know it is going to happen probably by the first of the new year or sometime early in the new year
he has the material on hand for the tubes they just need to be honed and milled
Very Cool :-* We will be seeing some serious bling :D
Thats real good news.
Mike
Well all we need now is a stainless trigger frame. Might as well do the pump arm linkage too!
Quote from: 1377x on November 27, 2012, 10:26:53 PM
talked to don cothran today
1377 tubes are going to be made
he needs to make some jigs for milling the slots and some others needed to complete the tubes
he also said he sets a couple days a week aside for airgun stuff but it doesnt put food on the table so his other accounts take priority
but just so you know it is going to happen probably by the first of the new year or sometime early in the new year
he has the material on hand for the tubes they just need to be honed and milled
ED
I too have talked with Don many times, but always about PCP & Big Bore.
How can we accurately assemble a list of people (Or Pre-Paid People) to insure he will have the interest to manufacture. And, those interested will have them available to them on a first on list basis?
I know
I would be interested in 4 myself. WaltIs something like a list available to be assembled?
Sounds like you have the ball on this one ED...
I'm in for two but will wait for everyone gets one first.
Mike
I'm in for one tube. We need the end caps to go with them so call Don back!
Quote from: 0351_Vet on November 28, 2012, 06:15:09 PM
ED
I too have talked with Don many times, but always about PCP & Big Bore.
How can we accurately assemble a list of people (Or Pre-Paid People) to insure he will have the interest to manufacture.
And, those interested will have them available to them on a first on list basis?
I know I would be interested in 4 myself. Walt
Is something like a list available to be assembled?
i asked how many tubes it would take to do a run and he said it was already in the works
all i can go by is what he said and that was he has the material but needs to make the jigs for machining the slots and holes and a hone because the tubes he has needs to be honed.he said he was going to start on them in the next couple weeks,he also told me he would have my invoice by the end of the day sadly that didnt happen.he also said the hi-rise stainless steel breeches were in the cnc machine while i was talking to him
Ooh he's making hi risers again???
Now who makes shroud mounts??
^^^^^^COOL^^^^^^^ To the above two posts. :-* :-* :-*
Quote from: Fronzdan on November 29, 2012, 07:41:31 PM
Ooh he's making hi risers again???
Now who makes shroud mounts??
Show me one...
A shroud mount? Hmm...yeah this is something you could make now. Basically a cylinder that slides over the barrel and tightens with set screw. It needs an o ring around the outside to create seal the tube/shroud. And something similar for the muzzle end of the barrel.
If you look at the EVP for a PRod, you can get an idea...parts 8 and 15.
http://www.crosman.com/pdf/manuals/BP2220-EVP%20&%20PL.pdf (http://www.crosman.com/pdf/manuals/BP2220-EVP%20&%20PL.pdf)
BNM and crosmods make breeches that have the mount built in...
http://bnm111.hpage.co.in/breech_dovetail_rail__shroud_holder__55571290.html (http://bnm111.hpage.co.in/breech_dovetail_rail__shroud_holder__55571290.html)
Cool, thanks for the links :-*
Quote from: chongman on November 29, 2012, 09:53:02 PM
Cool, thanks for the links :-*
Chongman, you don't need to wait for DC to make those tubes
next decade :D
You have the lathe and you have the technology, all you need is a good drill press with an indexing vise/table and the right size mills, those tubes are very thin wall and slots would be easy after thru drilling the ends in one wall on the very same drill press! Slow feed rate on the mill slots and you are good to go. :-*
that i want to see
i hear a people talking about their mini lathes arent enough to mess with stainless steel
Quote from: BDS on November 29, 2012, 10:17:27 PM
Chongman, you don't need to wait for DC to make those tubes next decade :D
You have the lathe and you have the technology, all you need is a good drill press with an indexing vise/table and the right size mills, those tubes are very thin wall and slots would be easy after thru drilling the ends in one wall on the very same drill press! Slow feed rate on the mill slots and you are good to go. :-*
Chongman: If you are using good, seamless SS tubing, your lathe will be just fine, medium rpms and slow-ish feed rates. Other, less informed comments are probably talking about bar stock cutting which is not what you are trying to do. You can also hone on your lathe, again it's all about feed & speed and good oils or coolants as needed.
I have only been making SS, Inconel, Hastelloy and other exotic metal parts for missiles & aircraft on 5 and 6 miliion $ CNC machines for oh... 35+ years so what we want to make for our hobby (tubes and safetys and hammers etc) is simple by comparison, definitely hobby lathe territory.
Very true.
I have a real nice drill press with a cross slide vise and a massive drill bit collection from 1/2" all the way down to number 80 (.0135") so drilling holes is not a problem. I'm planning on getting end mills and collets after the first of the year.
The Taig lathe is not limited to types of materials, only length and diameter. I can do stainless steel It's in my plans once I'm comfortable with brass and aluminum.
There's so many things to make :D
if making these tubes was so easy to make i am surprised there are not more out there
i know one guy who had the skills to do it and he said its not as easy as it is claimed to be
i have the info to do it with a drill press and a $50 hone
many hour will be put into it.not as easy as it sounds
i found the info on the web.its not hard to find ;)
I talked with Don Cothran about doing this 2 months ago
He told me exactly how you do it - didn't understand a word ???
Sounded hard even with CNC - if someone says it's easy they might be good enough to make it easy :-*
BTW, I'm in too for two ;D ;D
stainless can be worked with on a small lathe , on mine (Myford ML7) i find a heavy cut and slow feed works best with a good carbide cutter,the problem I see with making the tubes is the slot,holes etc. With the pressure required to drill the tube it would most likely deform the areas of the tube where drilled unless an accurate plug was used inside the tube first.........maybe I'll experment with my theory this weekend with some scrap ss tubing......Earl
QuoteWith the pressure required to drill the tube it would most likely deform the areas of the tube where drilled unless an accurate plug was used inside
Hi earlp8,
That's exactly what Don told me - coming back to me now
He said it was because of how thin the tube was, needed to make an insert
The one he uses for the 22xx is wrong size
Amazing knowledge, machinists that is :-*
thats the same thing he told me a few days ago
he said he still needs to get some stuff before it happens because he was working on the hi-rize breeches and the barrel bands
since its so easy there are more than a few here who want the stainless 1377 tubes.lets see someone turn them out and help out these members who have been waiting ages to get a tube ;)