???I started out just wanting an air pistol and finally decided on a 2240. Popular gun, lots of help from other owners, lots of options for mods. Then I read more threads, posted some of my own and read the replies. It seems there are fairly frequent incidents of people getting new 2240s with problems right out of the package. I figured a custom shop gun was the way to go to avoid some problems and get a pretty slick pistol. Tonight I've been reading how many guys love their stock 2240s and it occurred to me that the stock gun costs like 1/2 of what I would spend on a custom build. It's enough to make a guy dizzy. Are there really that many defects right out the factory or are some guys just getting the occasional lemon? ???
You want to get going, buy a 2240. IMO the only thing that has been an issue on the 2240 has been the front sight leaning alittle. I fixed mine and now on the bench I can put 5 pellets in less than a dime circle. These things are easy to work on and there is alot of people here than can help with what ever you want to do. Look at the Gallery you will see what others have done to the 2240, awesome! ;)
It's all about the production bell curve. The odds are that you will get a good one.
Carl
I'd go for a 2240. On the off chance it has a problem, the upgrades you'll do will fix them anyway.
Okay, then. I'm gonna go for it. I hope Amazon is still running their Crosman special.
I will want to see what simple, effective and inexpensive power mods I can do soon after getting the gun. I saw a bolt probe mod on you tube that was not an extension but trimmed down to increase air flow. I don't think it costs very much but it's supposed to increase velocity by about 50 fps. I've heard about gaining some power by changing the hammer spring, I believe. I guess you don't have to spend a lot to see some improvement.
Quote from: azmark on May 11, 2013, 07:12:46 AM
Okay, then. I'm gonna go for it. I hope Amazon is still running their Crosman special.
I will want to see what simple, effective and inexpensive power mods I can do soon after getting the gun. I saw a bolt probe mod on you tube that was not an extension but trimmed down to increase air flow. I don't think it costs very much but it's supposed to increase velocity by about 50 fps. I've heard about gaining some power by changing the hammer spring, I believe. I guess you don't have to spend a lot to see some improvement.
Not sure if you have a chrony but you definitely need one if you are planning on doing mods and measuring the results.
I remember that video and let me say that a 50 fps gain from a simple bolt change is pretty unrealistic. Even at its best you might get a 20 - 30 reliable fps increase.
Beware of changing out the hammer spring. It's tempting when going for power, to stuff a beefier spring behind the striker. Resist this approach if you can, the heavier spring will do more bad than good. Damage to the cocking mechanism, heavier trigger weight, more jounce to the gun when fired, wasted gas and a louder gun, muzzle blast induced inaccuracy... none of it good.
Rather, find ways to flow more air or co2 with the same spring which leads us to...
Imagining the exhaust valve as somehow similar to the valves in an internal combustion engine is misleading. The pressures, temperatures, and dimensions are worlds apart. The exhaust valve of a gas gun is more analogous to the fuel injector of a car, you are metering energy, in the form of a high pressure fluid.
The principles of smooth passages with minimal bends still apply, but maximizing the gas volume released with long dwell (caused by heavy strikers and strong springs) will just waste gas (or air, if you are tuning for air conservation in a pump gun, or efficiency in a pcp).
Carl
You would spend around $110 to turn your stock $56 2240 into a custom shop 2400kt carbine. My 2400kt was $87 with an 18" .22 cal barrel, steel breech and shoulder stock.
I just checked out the graphs under Brutz's post on the gmac hollow bolt probe. The test was done using a stock 2400. There's a graph for the stock bolt and the modded bolt. I'm curious...do all CO2 guns have a decline in velocity as subsequent shots are fired? It seems that gas pressure is not regulated. There's no consistency over the life of the CO2 powerlet. Crosman claims that the 2300 keeps a consistent velocity for about 40 rounds. If that's true, what is different about the 2300?
Quote from: azmark on May 11, 2013, 05:45:56 PM
I just checked out the graphs under Brutz's post on the gmac hollow bolt probe. The test was done using a stock 2400. There's a graph for the stock bolt and the modded bolt. I'm curious...do all CO2 guns have a decline in velocity as subsequent shots are fired? It seems that gas pressure is not regulated. There's no consistency over the life of the CO2 powerlet. Crosman claims that the 2300 keeps a consistent velocity for about 40 rounds. If that's true, what is different about the 2300?
The 2300S, not sure about some of the other 2300 models, has a valve reduction sleeve which decreases the volume of the valve and also comes with a rear velocity adjuster which uses a much less powerful spring. This combination usually results in a lower fps number and therefore an increase in shot count.
If you want a more powerful gun your shot count will suffer because of the consumption of CO2 to produce that power.
Carl
Take a look at this graph and you will see what a valve reducer can do for you. The trade off is the power loss. Note that this is a .177 barrel, quite a bit longer than the 10" 2300 barrel, so FPS on the 2300 should be in the 450 range.
Rich
http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php/topic,7615.msg81252.html#msg81252 (http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php/topic,7615.msg81252.html#msg81252)
So, power mods on the 2300 are kinda moot, huh?
Quote from: azmark on May 11, 2013, 06:56:29 PM
So, power mods on the 2300 are kinda moot, huh?
No, not at all. The 22xx and 23xx guns are the same basic platform. You need to figure out why you want to do with the gun and that will determine where to start and if further mods are needed.
If you have a bit of Tim Taylor in you, then starting off with a 2240 and using it for a base of your learning curve is what I'd suggest. It all sums up to how much h power or efficiency you want and can live with. Accuracy should be strived for either way. All it takes is money and patience. How much money is dependent upon your bank account for a hobby.
Rich
I wanted an air pistol for pest control and having fun. It seems like the way velocity falls off as you shoot the 2240 would make for an unreliable target or pest control gun because you always have to compensate for lower velocity. On the 2300, you pretty much know what to expect but if the pressure is controlled is the power enough for pest control? It's really a tradeoff. Maybe I just need a better idea of the actual power levels required for shooting the little critters. I'm wondering if a pump would actually circumvent those problems by having the pressure almost the same every time.
Quote from: azmark on May 11, 2013, 08:04:09 PM
I wanted an air pistol for pest control and having fun. It seems like the way velocity falls off as you shoot the 2240 would make for an unreliable target or pest control gun because you always have to compensate for lower velocity. On the 2300, you pretty much know what to expect but if the pressure is controlled is the power enough for pest control? It's really a tradeoff. Maybe I just need a better idea of the actual power levels required for shooting the little critters. I'm wondering if a pump would actually circumvent those problems by having the pressure almost the same every time.
These are my numbers for a 1377 with no power mods except a 12" barrel (if that counts).
5 pumps
FPS FtLb.
459 3.7
459 3.7
454 3.6
459 3.7
457 3.7
10 pumps
549 5.3
540 5.1
545 5.2
546 5.2
535 5.0
Even with the different FPS at 5 and 10 pumps, the POI is the same. I don't think you'll notice too much of a change for the the first 30x shots or so with the 2240.
Someone knowledgeable here please correct me if I'm wrong. I'd hate to give bad info.
Quote from: Tater on May 11, 2013, 08:19:36 PM
Even with the different FPS at 5 and 10 pumps, the POI is the same. I don't think you'll notice too much of a change for the the first 30x shots or so with the 2240.
Someone knowledgeable here please correct me if I'm wrong. I'd hate to give bad info.
For a minimum of 30 shots you will notice no change. Presuming you have not made the change to a 'Boss' valve or something else your shot FPS will be pretty consistent.
Carl
Barry has his CCS 2300 .177 up to 580 fps now. That would be a good number for pest control with an accurate shot. Maybe he will jump in here and let you know how he got that.
I have read all your posts, and correct me if I am wrong... but you want this gun to also be effective for that. The stock 2240 would be border line I am thinking, with it 450 or so fps. The .22 pellet weight helps, but if it was me I would want more than 450 so it is a humane kill.
In co2, a longer barrel gives you more fps, because the co2 has more time in the barrel to expand and push the pellet.
I actually think the CCS 2400 with an 18" barrel was good advise! 18" allows for good expansion, you get a steel breech, upgraded trigger frame with the pull adjuster. A nice platform also to mod, as you learn and want more. It comes with a shoulder stock, and that will help you be more accurate. It is a carbine setup though, so if you want a pistol then a 2240 or 2300 is a good place to go then.
The 2300S volume reducing sleeve mentioned only comes stock in the 2300S, and it IS great for a higher shot count (around 65 good ones)... but I wouldn't consider it for pests... not enough power.
I know you have been going back and forth between co2 and a pumper. A good way to look at it is that a pumper with 10 pumps stock, is going to give you around what Jerry posted. They are slightly more powerful than co2, with both in stock form.
Hope that helps a little bit.
I think one thing that needs to be considered in his quest is that FPE is the most important factor for a humane kill.
Carl
Quote from: quickster47 on May 11, 2013, 11:58:11 PM
I think one thing that needs to be considered in his quest is that FPE is the most important factor for a humane kill.
Carl
Yep, so a carbine might be the way for him to go. A 2400KT 18" .22 barrel maybe?
Quote from: arkmaker on May 12, 2013, 01:12:41 AM
Yep, so a carbine might be the way for him to go. A 2400KT 18" .22 barrel maybe?
Yepper, that would definitely get the job done. :-*
Carl
Well, I was away for a bit but now I have caught up. I did some more research and found that the 2300S and 2300T share the same valve assembly and have the same max velocity spec. The 2300S has the Pressure Adjust Assembly, whereas the T model does not.
I have definitely thought about the 2400 KT. The 18" barrel seems like a lot of unsupported barrel hanging out there, like it might be susceptible to damage. I wonder how much, if any, velocity is gained with the 18" barrel over the 14.6" tube? The extra sight radius wouldn't hurt, though.
azmark,
The problem you asked about referring to the speed of the pellet slowing on subsequent shots has to do with the time/temperature relationship between shots. The PSI of Co2 is controlled by its temperature. The warmer it is, the higher pressure it has when retained as a liquid. This is why guys in colder environments stop using it to hunt with in winter. Co2 is a refrigerant and when it expands, it also cools. As it cools, the pressure drops. If the time between shots is enough for the gun to warm back to the temperature of the first shot, the velocity will be the same as long as there is liquid Co2 left. When all of the Co2 is in a gaseous form, THEN your pressure will decline and you will notice a poi change (Drop) with the resultant lower pellet velocity.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Okay, one more time here is the infamous CO2 temperature - pressure relationship.
Carl
Does anyone know if the Custom Shop 2240 has an adjustable trigger?
You can adjust the trigger pull from heavy to lighter.
I know the 2300 has the adjustable trigger in stock form, so it would have it from the custom shop as well. Just can't find any documentation from Crosman that says the 2240 KT has the adjustment is added to the custom shop variety.
Quote from: azmark on May 15, 2013, 04:21:41 AM
I know the 2300 has the adjustable trigger in stock form, so it would have it from the custom shop as well. Just can't find any documentation from Crosman that says the 2240 KT has the adjustment is added to the custom shop variety.
From the CCS you can get a 2400KT or a 2300KT but not sure about a 2240KT. Where did you get that number?
Carl
You're right, it's a 2400. I can't find a manual for it. I wanted to check the specs on it. Looks like I have to call Crosman. Their email customer support can't seem to offer any support :-). All I can get is "manuals can be downloaded at: xxx location. They can't answer even simple questions about products.
There are no manuals for CCS guns (i.e. end in KT). Just refer to the 2240 for parts.
Quote from: azmark on May 16, 2013, 09:03:29 PM
You're right, it's a 2400. I can't find a manual for it. I wanted to check the specs on it. Looks like I have to call Crosman. Their email customer support can't seem to offer any support :-). All I can get is "manuals can be downloaded at: xxx location. They can't answer even simple questions about products.
Who's gonna' know more about Crosman guns? Some phone chimp who takes orders for new screws and springs all day, or the guys on this forum who have built thousands of these guns from the ground up and know every permutation that you could ever encounter?
If my car breaks down I don't call Toyota in Japan. I call my mechanic friend who's been reparing these cars for years. Much more helpful.
In the order takers defense, they just do not have the time to do your research for you. It is set up where you have your list of parts and as you read them off they give you a price with a tally at the end.
That said, it with be nice if they had a technical hotline :-*
Quote from: arkmaker on May 16, 2013, 11:22:25 PM
In the order takers defense, they just do not have the time to do your research for you. It is set up where you have your list of parts and as you read them off they give you a price with a tally at the end.
That said, it with be nice if they had a technical hotline :-*
But then ... we have us .....
The closest owners manual and EVP you will find for the 2400KT is the 2250B model. I don't have one so I'm not sure but I expect that it also has the sear spring and adjustment pieces that shows in the EVP for the 2300S or 2300T.
Cheers,
The guy on the phone said he thinks the 2400 has the same trigger group as the 2300. The 2400 on the CCS page does have the overtravel adjustment. The 2400 has an 18" barrel by default but I think I'd rather go with the 10 inch so I can also put grips on it and use it as a pistol. The 14.6" would be better in terms of velocity but I can't imagine that would work as a pistol barrel. I think it would be just too long for that.
Here`s mine with a 14.5 inch barrel to give you an idea of the look i put a 2400 co2 tube on this 2240
(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o703/brzrider/DSCF0005_zps875f1f52.jpg) (http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/brzrider/media/DSCF0005_zps875f1f52.jpg.html)
Jim
Quote from: brz-ryder on May 17, 2013, 08:26:07 AM
Here`s mine with a 14.5 inch barrel to give you an idea of the look i put a 2400 co2 tube on this 2240
(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o703/brzrider/DSCF0005_zps875f1f52.jpg) (http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/brzrider/media/DSCF0005_zps875f1f52.jpg.html)
Jim
"Oh MY..."
That doesn't seem out of proportion like I thought it would. What's the difference between the 2240 tube and that on the 2400?
2240 tube is 8 3/8" the 2400 is 10"
Jim
Doesn't a longer tube mean less pressure, or does the valve allow the pressure to equalize with the pressure of the powerlet? That would mean a larger volume of gas at the same pressure which should mean higher velocity, correct?
Quote from: azmark on May 18, 2013, 04:09:01 PM
Doesn't a longer tube mean less pressure, or does the valve allow the pressure to equalize with the pressure of the powerlet? That would mean a larger volume of gas at the same pressure which should mean higher velocity, correct?
If you remember neither the 2240 or 2250 tube is actually pressurized. The 2250 uses the same 12 gram CO2 cartridges. It just uses an extension on the gas gap to make up for the added length of the main tube to push the cartridge against the valve.
Carl
^^^ what he said. The powerlet seats up to a seal on the valve.
Okay, so the longer tube is cosmetic, or what?
Quote from: azmark on May 18, 2013, 04:45:16 PM
Okay, so the longer tube is cosmetic, or what?
Yep... if it is on a 2240.
On other guns, sometimes the longer tube is need to bolt on a fore stock.
Quote from: Brent on May 18, 2013, 04:56:49 PM
Yep... if it is on a 2240.
On other guns, sometimes the longer tube is need to bolt on a fore stock.
Which is why i put the 2400 tube on my 2240 so i could put the walnut forearm on the gun
Jim
the 2400 and the 2300 share the same are the same tubes as the 2250 and 2240. the trigger groups are the same and not adjustable. the 2300S comes with a allen screw on the back of the trigger guard to restrict the travel of the trigger once pulled over the sear. If you want adjustable you need the spring and adjustable sleeve that come with the 2300S. As per power and co2 consistency... co2 will produce the same pressure at a given temperature as long as there is liquid CO2 in the powerlet. just wait a little between shots so that the barrel will return to room temperature, as it influences the rate of expansion of the gas that pushes the pellet. I have a 2240 with a home modified valve, a home made transfer port and a stronger hammer spring, with a 14 in barrel and a long metal breech. it shoots 25 shots at 550 fps with crosman prems... at the 25 shot it dumps all the co2 left and i know to replace the powerlet. very consistent and hard enough for 25 yard nutters... the 2250 tube is beneficial to use a forestock, or if you want to bulk fill... but if you do you must modify the piercer in the valve (grind it off). I do not reccomend it... you are better off getting a unsafe gadget... or cutting down a disco.
Quote from: lillysdad621 on May 18, 2013, 11:25:00 PM
the 2400 and the 2300 share the same are the same tubes as the 2250 and 2240. the trigger groups are the same and not adjustable. the 2300S comes with a allen screw on the back of the trigger guard to restrict the travel of the trigger once pulled over the sear. If you want adjustable you need the spring and adjustable sleeve that come with the 2300S. As per power and co2 consistency... co2 will produce the same pressure at a given temperature as long as there is liquid CO2 in the powerlet. just wait a little between shots so that the barrel will return to room temperature, as it influences the rate of expansion of the gas that pushes the pellet. I have a 2240 with a home modified valve, a home made transfer port and a stronger hammer spring, with a 14 in barrel and a long metal breech. it shoots 25 shots at 550 fps with crosman prems... at the 25 shot it dumps all the co2 left and i know to replace the powerlet. very consistent and hard enough for 25 yard nutters... the 2250 tube is beneficial to use a forestock, or if you want to bulk fill... but if you do you must modify the piercer in the valve (grind it off). I do not reccomend it... you are better off getting a unsafe gadget... or cutting down a disco.
Been here 3 years and have 7 posts... and you do sound truly like you know what you are talking about :-*
Please jump in more often... that would be great :-*
The 2250 tube is longer then the 2240 and 2300 tubes.
That statement made by the OP was pretty confusing and not real sure exactly what point he was trying to make.
Carl
Quote from: quickster47 on May 19, 2013, 03:29:44 AM
That statement made by the OP was pretty confusing and not real sure exactly what point he was trying to make.
Carl
x1
You mean the one about the tubes? I was trying to visualize what the pistols would look like with the 14.xx inch barrel. I imagined it would look a bit goofy wit such a long barrel. When I saw the picture I realized it doesn't seem so long because of the longer tube. I would like to gain velocity with a longer barrel but there's a point that a pistol is unwieldy.
I was just having a brain fart with the thing about pressure in the tube. I've been on the road teaching and got a bit burned out. :-[
Quote from: lillysdad621 on May 18, 2013, 11:25:00 PM
the 2400 and the 2300 share the same are the same tubes as the 2250 and 2240. the trigger groups are the same and not adjustable. the 2300S comes with a allen screw on the back of the trigger guard to restrict the travel of the trigger once pulled over the sear. If you want adjustable you need the spring and adjustable sleeve that come with the 2300S. As per power and co2 consistency... co2 will produce the same pressure at a given temperature as long as there is liquid CO2 in the powerlet. just wait a little between shots so that the barrel will return to room temperature, as it influences the rate of expansion of the gas that pushes the pellet. I have a 2240 with a home modified valve, a home made transfer port and a stronger hammer spring, with a 14 in barrel and a long metal breech. it shoots 25 shots at 550 fps with crosman prems... at the 25 shot it dumps all the co2 left and i know to replace the powerlet. very consistent and hard enough for 25 yard nutters... the 2250 tube is beneficial to use a forestock, or if you want to bulk fill... but if you do you must modify the piercer in the valve (grind it off). I do not reccomend it... you are better off getting a unsafe gadget... or cutting down a disco.
You're getting the performance I want from my pistol. Are there commercially available parts to duplicate that performance?
yes... the performance mods i made mimick the crooked barn setup of the tom cat... what i think to be the best hunting pistol available. those numbers are actually somewhat mild, as the boss valve that they use allows for close to 600 fps with a 14 inch barrel. check with crooked barn...