Afternooon Gents (& Ladies if any are reading!) I have a small question.
If you were to make a .25 cal pistol what would you choose for a base:
A: 22XX
B: 13XX
I have been given the choice of a 230mm barrel turned down at the front and back for a 13XX but will fit a 22XX
or a 14.5 inch barrel with built on 1/2 unf, SS probe and a 6.5 inch breech with both new and old screw locations.
(Sorry for the metric/imperial mix - that's how I was supplied the info!)
I'm tempted by the latter but may get both. I just can't decide on the base pistoll to mod. Again I'm leaning towards a 13XX.
I guess to put it blankly, Co2 or pneumatic in .25
Noah, if you're reading this (or Carl as you've used Noahs guns) which was the most impressive/fun/cool/worthy! ;)
Same to anyone else that has one in either format.
Thanks chaps! :)
If it were me i would go with the 22XX if your useing it for hunting just because you can shoot with out pumping in the field. Also i think it would be a better looking gun in .25 Cal. I always wanted to build a .25 Cal gun from a 2240. I really like Noah's. :-*
Mike
Great topic, Northstar!
Just so happens that when I'm finished with my current project (MK I HPA), this was/is going to be my next one. :)
Myself, I would go with the 22xx, for the sole reason that I want to use HPA. Hard to get a 25 gr, .25 cal pellet to go 850 - 900 fps on Co2 (I think)
I will be following this thread (and I'm assuming an up-coming project by you?) with great interest.
Todd
I am partial to the 13xx since it can produce very good power (with basic modifications) and be used year round. If you are looking to maximize power, the 22xx base may be the better choice if you plan to bulk or use HPA. The latter will be much more costly, while the former is still easy to grab and take with you.
Look at a couple of photos of 13xx and 22xx pistols in .25 caliber Mountain Air website - http://www.mountainaircustomairguns.com/our_guns.htm. (http://www.mountainaircustomairguns.com/our_guns.htm.) This might inspire you to choose one platform over the other.
This wasnt one of the choices but I would go with a shotened disco tube.
The HPA based 22xx would be my first choice (even though not listed)
Of the two listed, 13xx would be my choice. Lack of cold weather effect, easy to mod for more power. Self contained.
If you build either one and don't like it you can always spend $50 more and get the "other" base, and swap the upper half and grips over.
Quote from: MartinDWhite on February 01, 2012, 08:24:33 PM
The HPA based 22xx would be my first choice (even though not listed)
Of the two listed, 13xx would be my choice. Lack of cold weather effect, easy to mod for more power. Self contained.
If you build either one and don't like it you can always spend $50 more and get the "other" base, and swap the upper half and grips over.
Good idea! :D ;D ;D
---------------------------
It's a tough call. HPA is a good idea as are all the posts given. I'm limited to a 14" barrel and that means a UK limit
of 12FPE so I think it may be overkill for me personally as an Englishman. If I was in the US then for sure.
So my next question would be "What power level, with the 14" barrel, would be obtainable with either model base?"
To make it simpler it would be based on stock setups both 13xx and 22xx.
10 pumps versus a 12g Co2 capsule. (Co2 at what would be deemed normal shooting temps & accounting for the barrel)
I'm veering towards the 13xx as I can vary the power level much easier. In reality it would end up with an FT valve
and either would have a stock to make it carbine - another UK legal requirement. BTW I'm not against the Co2 if it wins! :D
Thanks chaps! :)
if power limits concern you ,then i would go with co2 .that way if you set it for consistent fps/fpe with the lightest available pellet then the LE can't hassle much . with a pumper, a pump or two more might make you a target in the LE eyes . of course if you care that is .that's the way i see it atleast
That is a fair point Eric and partly my reason for enquiring.
I just had a very minor brainwave.....rare moment..... I used the search function and found Noahs numbers for his .25s
http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php?topic=5387.msg55027#msg55027 (http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php?topic=5387.msg55027#msg55027)
I think I'm right in saying he used 12" barrels on both. ???
QuoteBeeman H&N Match Wadcutters weighing in at 20.06 grains.
1325 at 5 pumps - 20 shots
FPS FPE
Min = 353.70 5.57
Max = 359.00 5.74
Mean = 356.66 5.67
Median = 356.60 5.67
Hi Lo Spread = 5.30 0.17
Std Deviation = 1.93 0.06
1325 at 10 pumps - 20 shots
FPS FPE
Min = 447.70 8.93
Max = 462.80 9.54
Mean = 453.78 9.18
Median = 452.70 9.13
Hi Lo Spread = 15.10 0.61
Std Deviation = 6.34 0.26
2540 new powerlet - 20 shots
FPS FPE
Min = 482.40 10.37
Max = 523.40 12.21
Mean = 501.93 11.23
Median = 499.05 11.10
Hi Lo Spread = 41.00 1.84
Std Deviation = 15.54 0.70
Obviously with a 14" over the 12" there will be a small increase in power from the figures shown. Decisions!
I do not have my own .25 caliber yet, but when I build myself one you can bet I will be using CO2.
From having shot Noah's 1325 and his 2540, the 2540 was the most powerful and had the best feel.
Carl
I would go with the 22xx platform :-*
Glen
I'm familiar with there being a few 22xx .25 cal air pistols - I think DAQ was the first one I was aware of, but only the Mountain Air 1325 http://www.mountainaircustomairguns.com/model_8.htm (http://www.mountainaircustomairguns.com/model_8.htm) pumper. Then again, I don't keep up with the big .25 caliber much. ;)
NS - 12fpe means its going to be a carbine, right? Not familiar GB laws. Once you're done with construction does it have to be verified by some regulatory body?
Quote from: AZAG on February 02, 2012, 08:14:55 PM
NS - 12fpe means its going to be a carbine, right? Not familiar GB laws. Once you're done with construction does it have to be verified by some regulatory body?
You are correct. It will be a carbine. The barrel I have coming is the same length as a 2250b.
That means by default I will have to put a stock on it the same as a 2250b. Otherwise it would be classed as a pistol.
That would put it down in the 6FPE power range which, is to me, pointless for this project to be worthwhile.
I'd picture the pellet plopping out the end of the barrel or something like a spudgun. :D
In actuality the carbine would need to be modded to shoot a lighter grain .25 pellet to a sub 12FPE.
Down to around 11.5FPE give or take. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Regarding the regulatory body. That's me. It's my obligation to stay within the limits. Some people ignore it
but it's at their own risk. I for one don't want a cell mate (or a cell for that matter!).
It's just not worth it IMHO regardless if people agree.
Now the techy bit.
.25 barrel and breech was on a SS tubed carbine based on a 2260 tube to run on HPA at 1000psi
rather than co2 at 850psi. Initial tests levels of 17+ftlb were recorded, a little lower at 850psi and prior to tuning
it to sub 12ftlb. This can be quite easy to go over the UK limit.
2260 based tube converted to bulk fill with boss valve & Filler, basically a complete Boss & Max-Flow Bulk-Fill system
with Filling Head with additional retaining grub-screws fitted to secure valve.The 13xx doesn't seem appropriate for this build and the majority of you seem to being saying that too. Makes sense! :)
So I have two more options. I can build my own or purchase the above kit. I may do the latter if it IS tuned already.
It is a trusted source. If not I'm in no hurry and it's a learning curve.
Shudder...... the Darkside. Will this be it? ;D Not something I've wanted till now. :-X
Quote from: NorthStaR on February 02, 2012, 09:45:36 PM
You are correct. It will be a carbine. The barrel I have coming is the same length as a 2250b.
That means by default I will have to put a stock on it the same as a 2250b. Otherwise it would be classed as a pistol.
That would put it down in the 6FPE power range which, is to me, pointless for this project to be worthwhile.
I'd picture the pellet plopping out the end of the barrel or something like a spudgun. :D
In actuality the carbine would need to be modded to shoot a lighter grain .25 pellet to a sub 12FPE.
Down to around 11.5FPE give or take. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Regarding the regulatory body. That's me. It's my obligation to stay within the limits. Some people ignore it
but it's at their own risk. I for one don't want a cell mate (or a cell for that matter!).
It's just not worth it IMHO regardless if people agree.
Now the techy bit.
.25 barrel and breech was on a SS tubed carbine based on a 2260 tube to run on HPA at 1000psi
rather than co2 at 850psi. Initial tests levels of 17+ftlb were recorded, a little lower at 850psi and prior to tuning
it to sub 12ftlb. This can be quite easy to go over the UK limit.
2260 based tube converted to bulk fill with boss valve & Filler, basically a complete Boss & Max-Flow Bulk-Fill system
with Filling Head with additional retaining grub-screws fitted to secure valve.
The 13xx doesn't seem appropriate for this build and the majority of you seem to being saying that too. Makes sense! :)
So I have two more options. I can build my own or purchase the above kit. I may do the latter if it IS tuned already.
It is a trusted source. If not I'm in no hurry and it's a learning curve.
Shudder...... the Darkside. Will this be it? ;D Not something I've wanted till now. :-X
I know what you mean. When I got into this hobby, I never thought I would want a PCP. However, I've been watching Ted's Holdover Youtube channel lately. He uses a Edgun Matador on his farm and regularly takes birds at 80-100 yards. Really impressive to watch someone hit something that far away through a scope.
Having slept on the thought I'm still undecided on the whole PCP or bulk fill aspect. ???
I just don't dig HPA and Co2 bulk fill isn't really an option for me at the mo...
I have always favoured the 12g capsules as a personal choice. Cheap, simple and safer. I suppose due to power limits
it seems like I'd be using something far too restricted for it's potential. It's like having a ferrari and only being allowed to use first gear.
12g capsule - same 850psi scenario but less of it, professionally filled and less to worry about. Perfect!
Also I can keep all my guns (relative to Co2) running on the same source of gas if they all accept the same input device.
I'd rather my gun do the barrel fart than have a part of it fly off, kill me and enter the wall.
No country for old men? No guns for dead men!
It may end up weaker than the Stateside setups but it will be truly silent except for the thud of a .25 hitting home. 8)
Exciting stuff! It should arrive this weekend if I'm lucky. Do I feel lucky...punk?
Quote from: BassManNate on February 03, 2012, 01:20:21 AM
I've been watching Ted's Holdover Youtube channel lately. He uses a Edgun Matador on his farm and regularly takes birds at 80-100 yards. Really impressive to watch someone hit something that far away through a scope.
That Guy can shoot 8) I watched several of his videos. He is good at presenting the content on his videos.
If I can find another 1389 would consider .25 barrel,it would have to be short to keep below 12ftlbs power limit.
Only reason why apart from great short range ratting tool,mate of mine gave me 3000 rounds of .25 ammo he did not want.
3000 :o That's a good friend!
Still waiting for the barrel. I just ordered a tin of these:
Quote from: gdm620 on February 04, 2012, 01:37:21 PM
That Guy can shoot 8) I watched several of his videos. He is good at presenting the content on his videos.
No kidding! His presentation is part of what makes his videos so fun to watch.
Quote from: quickster47 on February 02, 2012, 02:14:36 AM
I do not have my own .25 caliber yet, but when I build myself one you can bet I will be using CO2.
From having shot Noah's 1325 and his 2540, the 2540 was the most powerful and had the best feel.
Carl
Yes, both have 12" barrels ;)
Quote from: NorthStaR on February 04, 2012, 07:00:47 PM
3000 :o That's a good friend!
Still waiting for the barrel. I just ordered a tin of these:
Both of my Mountain Air 1325 and 2540 guns really like those same Rhinos! I have a small supply on hand but nothing like 3000 ???
What they really liked were the Beeman .25 round lead balls, but I can't them anywhere any longer :(
NEW QUESTION!
If in .177 cal the optimum barrel length is 24"
If in .22 cal the optimum barrel length is 18"
If in .25 cal, what is the optimum barrel length?! 14", 16", 18"...?
My question was based on a post by Mr.007 stating that he had tried a 24" .25 barrel and it had a negative outcome.
The FPS dropped out with the accuracy. Mr.007 was using an 18" previously. Apologies if I am wrong!
http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php?topic=5988.msg61886#msg61886 (http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php?topic=5988.msg61886#msg61886)
The optimum barrel lengths are referenced from posts stating that they thought this to be the case.
Personally I haven't tested a lot of variations of barrel lengths enough to make any mathematical conclusions to date.
My math isn't the best even if I had! :D ;D ;D
It's a curio question. I have a 14" waiting in the depot but for future reference and for anyone else considering
this caliber I thought it would be a worthwhile post... ;) ..... if an answer can be reached!
PS: Yes I have just discovered the "Horizontal rule" button on the forum! Saves typing endless minus/hyphens! :P
Why don't you just do one of each?
As for the 22xx...I'd probably go with a 2250, but only because I like the foregrip or whatever it's called...
Quote from: woody67 on February 09, 2012, 05:51:08 PM
Why don't you just do one of each?
Good question!
My main 2 reasons: 1: I only have a 14" barrel on it's way so anything longer is out for now.
2: If anyone already knows the answer then I don't have to cut, crown, shoot, cut, crown....
And
3: ;D If I cut it past the sweet spot (which I can't as it's 14" unless it is minus or as is) then I'm back to square one!
So what is the optimum barrel length!? :D I gotta know!
Part of it is for knowledge, like I said the 14" is on it's way but IF I was to order more, when in stock, then I would like to go for
the optimum length from the start. Another factor is I can have it modded for attachments + an 11 degree crown by default.
One last major factor is I pay a LOT more than you US CAPOFarians for these barrels and pretty much everything else related.
For example; I have a converted METRIC breech with SS .25 probe and a 14" .25 barrel.......... £130 or $205.92!
That my friend is why I don't want to trial and error my way to victory this time! ;) I'd be a Hobo in no time!
Also it could be a reference for anyone else going into this caliber so I thought it would be helpful.
Well not sure who's breech you are using but a .25 barrel here is $115 a repeater breech is $200. Thats $300 my cost:)
a lot of the airgun gurus say that 14" barrels are the optimum length for .22 cal with co2 . not sure about anything else though :-[ ???
OK, a day of salvaging parts for a temp build to test the 14" barrel in .25 cal.
Metal breech, 2240 body tube, 22xx stock valve, 1389 stock. Poly tube transfer port.
There's two purposes to this temp build. One to give out the numbers.
And two; so I can tune it to UK legal levels - no higher.
19 GRN Rhinos Pellets. Brand new 12g cart.
count,velocity (FPS),power (FPE)
01, 577,14.04
02, 588,14.57
03, 578,14.12
04, 568,13.62
05, 561,13.27
06, 538,12.20
07, 551,12.83
08, 524,11.58
09, 522,11.50
10, 552,12.86
At the time I had not noticed but there was a tiny transfer port leak. It was cut slightly too short. No other mods.
Regardless - too much power for my legal limit so I dismantled it.
Put in a lighter hammer spring plus guide (lighter spring has more wobble)
and preloaded the valve spring with 1mm of poly tube.
19 GRN Rhinos Pellets. New transfer poly tube port. Brand new 12g cart.
count,velocity (FPS),power (FPE)
01, 529,11.80
02, 527,11.72
03, 510,10.97
04, 529,11.80
05, 527,11.72
06, 510,10.99
07, 521,11.47
08, 518,11.34
09, 514,11.15
10, 520,11.40
OK now I'm sub 12FPE. Uk legal... ???
As there was gas left I thought I'd try a heavy pellet thinking it would be weaker.
I thought this because the lighter Rhino pellet reached this speed/power (sub 12FPE) so therfore with a heavier one would
be slower and weaker. No.
WALTHER Hunter Energy (DumDums) 28.4GRN
count,velocity (FPS),power (FPE)
01, 482,14.64
02, 471,14.02
03, 475,14.24
04, 461,13.42
05, 486,14.92
06, 455,13.03
07, 443,12.35
08, 423,11.30
09, 416,10.92
10, 428,11.57
I didn't expect this. BTW this last shot string was not a new cart but left over from the Rhinos test so not quite a controlled test.
However this does mean I have to reduce the power further to be legal with this heavier pellet so the carbine is now disassembled
to loose parts again.
With the lighter hammer spring and preloaded valve spring it can get to a point that it struggles to pierce the 12g cart.
I'm going to ProTop and reduce the valve volume. More control and options.
All these strings were done by shot after shot with no pause.
The slight raise in power maybe when a slight pause occurred when I fumbled a couple of pellets! ;)
These .25 cal pack a punch! .22 is more efficient than .177 - .25 blows them both away IMHO. 8)
DISCLAIMER: AS SAID THE OVER POWERED CARBINE WAS DISMANTLED TO LOOSE SPARE PARTS
DUE TO LEVELS REACHED. ONLY UK LEGAL LEVELS ARE MY AIM - NOTHING MORE. ABSOLUTE.
CHRONY TESTS ARE REQUIRED TO REACH THE CORRECT LEVEL. THIS IS A BASE LINE TO WORK FROM. :)
One extra string to show variation of 12g cart on .25 cal.
No valve spring preload, lighter hammer spring, poly transfer port.
19 GRN Rhinos Pellets. New transfer poly tube port. Brand new 12g cart.
count,velocity (FPS),power (FPE)
01, 502,10.63
02, 550,12.76
03, 531,11.88
04, 542,12.41
05, 532,11.94
06, 540,12.31
07, 564,13.44
08, 564,13.40
09, 559,13.19
10, 545,12.55
11, 526,11.67
12, 554,12.97
13, 540,12.29
14, 544,12.51
15, 553,12.90
16, 553,12.88
17, 527,11.72
18, 511,11.02
19, 489,10.08
20, 475,9.52
21, 485,9.92
22, 476,9.57
23, 383,6.18
24, 439,8.12
25, 376,5.98
26, 370,5.77
27, 368,5.70
28, 363,5.56
29, 347,5.07
30, 348,5.10
STOP.
BTW It is winter and not optimum shooting temps, even indoors!
Awesome and totally informative - thanks for the research findings. :-*
Spent another day tinkering with the valve for the 14" .25cal. I have taken this thing apart SO many times!
That's the thing with valves, everything has to come off to get to it! Tally-ho! :D
I cut the valve stem for the Pro-Top. I'm still using the lighter hammer spring with guide which adds a 3mm preload.
With no mods (except hammer spring and dot ring spacer installed that came with the Pro-Top) on the Pro-top setup
it was hitting 11.5'ish FPE on a 19GRN Rhino and 15.5'ishFPE with 28.4GRN WALTHER Hunter Energy pellets.
Still way to high unfortunately! Another teardown! ???
The Pro-top took a different approach which was easier as the piercing stem is out the way.
I tried pre-loading the valve spring with a few metal washers which didn't do a great deal.
I finally ended up good though. I cut a 10mm length of silicone tubing to reduce the flow port in the Pro-Top that
ports the Co2 from the 12g cart into the valve. About 3/4 narrower.
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h346/NorthStaR2250/25XX/large-hagen-silicone-air-tube-10foot.jpg)
I also had the dot ring spacer installed that came with the Pro-Top. On top of that I put a metric M3 locking nut.
The round head of the nut seats the valve spring nicely. This pretty much fills up the Pro-tops internal part and
preloads the valve spring.
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h346/NorthStaR2250/25XX/Metric_M3_locking_nut.jpg)
The combination of all 3, the lighter hammer, reduced flow port and preloaded valve sping has given me what
I deem to be about right. Maybe a bit of fine tuning still. It has to my eye has helped regulate/stabilized the shot fluctuations
seen from my previous attempts at reducing it's power levels. :-*
I'd guess the valve is about half to two thirds the volume it was. 8)
Silicone tube insert, dot ring and M3 locking nut preload on valve spring, lighter hammer spring, poly transfer port.
19 GRN Rhinos Pellets. Brand new 12g cart.
count,velocity (FPS),power (FPE)
count,velocity,power
01, 520,11.41
02, 495,10.33
03, 486,9.97
04, 505,10.76
05, 514,11.16
06, 509,10.93
07, 520,11.43
08, 510,10.96
09, 493,10.27
10, 524,11.60
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h346/NorthStaR2250/25XX/19grn25calprotop1nutsiliconepolyreducer.jpg)
WALTHER Hunter Energy (DumDums) 28.4GRN
count,velocity (FPS),power (FPE)
count,velocity,power
01, 404,10.30
02, 431,11.71
03, 473,14.09
04, 436,12.01
05, 411,10.64
06, 418,11.00
07, 433,11.84
08, 440,12.23
09, 399,10.04
10, 392,9.70
(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h346/NorthStaR2250/25XX/284grn25calprotop1nutsiliconepolyreducer.jpg)
Cool. There's only about 1/2 FPE difference ( ??? ) from 19 GRN to 28.4GRN with this mod. I am quite surprised! :o 8)
I will replace the silicone tubing with a more long term material like a brass tube or something similar.
Otherwise I'm pretty happy with it. Again it's winter and not quite as warm so the levels will rise in summer
which I will have to account for and retest to see if the ambient temp effects the numbers much.
There seems a lot more choice in pellets for this caliber versus .20 as another of the less popular calibers.
.25cal is my new favorite caliber and it's a pack-a-punch machine. 8)
DISCLAIMER: AS SAID THE OVER POWERED CARBINE WAS DISMANTLED TO LOOSE SPARE PARTS
DUE TO LEVELS REACHED. ONLY UK LEGAL LEVELS ARE MY AIM - NOTHING MORE. ABSOLUTE.
CHRONY TESTS ARE REQUIRED TO REACH THE CORRECT LEVEL. THIS IS A BASE LINE TO WORK FROM. :)
You sure are tempting me to whack off 12 inches of my old cull .25 LW barrel and place it on one of my 22xx shooters.
Quote from: mr007s on February 19, 2012, 10:08:15 PM
You sure are tempting me to whack off 12 inches of my old cull .25 LW barrel and place it on one of my 22xx shooters.
Nothing to lose, go for it! If I'm getting these numbers then I wonder what you'd be getting with the .25
Stone Cold hpa. ???
12g 850 psi versus bulk hpa 1000 psi? Could 14" be the optimum sweet spot?
It's funny, my setup is nearly the opposite from yours. Bulk v highly reduced. ;)
This things like trying to house train the
incredible hulk - it just wants to be powerful and let loose. 8)
It seems to me that the bigger the caliber the more powerful the 22xx setup gets.
More power? .25 it up.
Have you got a 10 shot string with the long LW barrel on Co2 to compare?
Quote from: NorthStaR on February 19, 2012, 11:11:44 PM
Have you got a 10 shot string with the long LW barrel on Co2 to compare?
I never got the Breech and LW set up to perform. I was using 2000 psi with 23.9 inch barrel
However, the 18 inch TOW barrel liner with 2000 psi shoots 19.6 grain H@N FTT's at 840 fps and 26 grain PolyMags at 735.
Any idea what both those convert to in FPE foot lbs?
Poly Mags, 30.5
FTT, 30.7
:o :-[ 8) Nice
NorthStar, thanks so much for taking the time to record this data and then post it for all to see.
It has great value for all of us considering a .25 cal pistola. :-*
Carl
mr007s,
If you cut the LW Barrel, I will buy the remaining piece, assuming it's +10-12" :-* :-*
Quote from: quickster47 on February 20, 2012, 01:01:14 AM
NorthStar, thanks so much for taking the time to record this data and then post it for all to see.
It has great value for all of us considering a .25 cal pistola. :-*
Carl
Anytime, it was fun and 100% necessary! Most of my guns are always on the low power side by
default but I check each one as I go. In this case it was for once a project of power reduction -
the .22 & .177 is always about upping power. In .25 it's the reverse! (for me!!!)
It also seems to be a niche of growing interest with little info available on here.
Now we have the numbers you ran through Noah's 2540 & 1325 with 12 inch barrels and mine with a 14" on a 2540.
I'd be interested to know if either yourself or Noah has opened up the innards of the 2550 to see
what has been done to the valve. As Noahs are they're both Mountanair rigs I wondered what the
builder may have done bar the .25 cal barrel? (Not meant in a snooty way! :) )
Quote from: 0351_Vet on February 20, 2012, 03:20:51 PM
mr007s,
If you cut the LW Barrel, I will buy the remaining piece, assuming it's +10-12" :-* :-*
And if
0351_Vet says it in
bold you know he means business! ;) It's Canon time! 8)
Quote from: 0351_Vet on February 20, 2012, 03:20:51 PM
mr007s,
If you cut the LW Barrel, I will buy the remaining piece, assuming it's +10-12" :-* :-*
Will do Sir. If I cut it there will be almost 12 inches left and it will be the half with the choke. But, I hope to sell it and not cut it :)