Crosman Air Pistol Owners Forum

Crosman air pistol - General => Crosman air pistol - General discussion => Topic started by: jkingrph on March 30, 2021, 08:58:54 PM

Title: CO2 cartridges
Post by: jkingrph on March 30, 2021, 08:58:54 PM
I just wiped the local wal mart out of 40 pack of CO2 cartridges. They only had three packs  but at $15.46 could not pass up.  Pyramid Air wants about 25+almost 13 shipping.  I was also looking for some of the cheap .22 pellets, but all they had was .177. Will check another town Friday when I visit the VA clinic
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: mudduck48 on March 31, 2021, 05:52:42 PM
Red Rock has CO2 at the best price, and free shipping. Check them out.
http://www.redrockminnesota.com/12-gram-unthreaded/
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: jkingrph on March 31, 2021, 08:01:07 PM
Quote from: mudduck48 on March 31, 2021, 05:52:42 PM
Red Rock has CO2 at the best price, and free shipping. Check them out.
http://www.redrockminnesota.com/12-gram-unthreaded/

Thanks, I will have to look at that.I see you have to buy 180 to get free shipping, but that is good.  Now if they do not charge sales tax it is really a good deal.   How do they compare to the crosman powerlets.  I just went ahead and ordered 300, no tax, saved about 7 cents per cart, considering the tax rate here saved me about $21,
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: mudduck48 on March 31, 2021, 08:52:23 PM
I bought 200 a while back and IMO they work great. They also have a safety seal on them. If you leave them on the dash of your car in really hot weather, they will not explode. You bought 300? That is .35 ea, can't beat that. ;)
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: jkingrph on March 31, 2021, 11:55:23 PM
Yes that many plus what I have will probably last me a lifetime at my age.  I do plan on giving the grandson some along with a pistol to start learning to use.
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: mr007s on April 01, 2021, 02:35:19 PM
I did a test of the two brands years ago. I weighed a dozen carts of both brands both full and empty. There were very little difference. I then cut several of each brand open and the crosman had a thin black film where as the redrock did not. You cant go wrong with the redrock. If you dont want the expense of 300 maybe find a buddy to go halfs with yoy
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: PaPa K on May 12, 2021, 02:13:03 AM
Seems Redrock might be temporarily out of cartridges. Given the current situation is that typical? I would like to order 300 pack, not sure how often this occurs. Thanks.
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: KevinP on May 12, 2021, 04:47:27 AM
I have been using the Red rock and have had no problems ... I have about 800 of them ( I don't think I'll outlive them )
I gave a big pile of crosman to  my grandson , he is a happy camper  :-* :)

also gave him a few guns .....   ;)
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: PaPa K on May 17, 2021, 10:46:14 PM
Red Rock has the 12 gr cartridges back in stock (for now)...Just ordered 300, should keep me going for a little while >:(
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: Cables on May 17, 2021, 11:19:04 PM
Speaking of these

I didn't know they lost pressure in cold weather

Has anyone used a thermal blanket with temperature controller wired for rechargeable lithium batteries to maintain peak performance?
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: PaPa K on May 18, 2021, 03:12:08 AM
Many folks keep their spares in an inside jacket pocket, large quantity you might have to have a small insulated bag or similar.
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: Cables on May 18, 2021, 02:20:44 PM
Quote from: PaPa K on May 18, 2021, 03:12:08 AM
Many folks keep their spares in an inside jacket pocket, large quantity you might have to have a small insulated bag or similar.

Exactly my point

So a cartridge at 70F has a static pressure of 850-900psi

At 60F and lower, the pressure drops to a level at or below the limit of airgun operational stability

There's a whole lot of opportunities for modifications

More investigation required
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: Rezarf on May 18, 2021, 02:39:17 PM
In the days of C02 paintball, I understood there was a lot of effort in exploring expansion chambers and heated chambers (although I have been unable to find anything on the Web). The desire in the paintball world to fire rapidly accelerated the conversion to HPA, since the cooling-on-expansion problems essentially could not be overcome economically. C02 is convenient here in Florida, since we have more consistent warm temperatures, and I'm not into rapid or timed shooting with the pistols. I do have a Crosman 1077 hooked up to bulk C02 (lotta fun! 😁) and I can freeze the valve on that puppy if I have enough loaded magazines on hand!
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: Cables on May 18, 2021, 02:53:17 PM
I was looking at maximum temperatures allowed for the 12g size and then a quick check is chemical hand warmers and their maximum temperatures. The two are very close.

I am curious if the hand warmers could be incorporated into trips for pistols or chamber sleeves for rifles.
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: Rezarf on May 19, 2021, 01:52:22 AM
I often wondered if there was an easy way to get the best performance out of a CO2 cart, so @Cables quest piqued my curiosity. I found this page: http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/gasses/co2dynamics.shtml  that discusses the nature of CO2, again with paintballers as its focus. From the explanations, it sounds like the ideal temperature to keep the gun (and all 'gas channel' parts) at would be 88 degrees F to allow for full vaporization of the CO2 liquid, and still keep the pressures safe. If I understand the tables, heating the cylinder beyond that will begin to cause squirrelly things with the pressures. Of course, if you could "flash" the valve with heat at the time of the hammer strike, you could increase the firing pressures to whatever, but then you might be getting into some safety concerns. I think that temperature control to the degree that you would get consistent pressures would be overly complicated... and much easier to just go to HPA. However, in my working with airguns, I have often found complexity and cost are often ignored for the sheer pleasure of tinkering. 😉
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: Cables on May 20, 2021, 03:34:34 PM


If the CO2 cartridges were stored at 88F, had a thermal sleeve, that would be something.

If bronze wool were used in the gas chamber, the thermal mass of the bronze wool may even out thermal variances in the cooling effect of repeated fast shooting operation.

Perhaps even bringing the gun mass to 88F with thermal breaks to isolate from ambient variations from 88F could be achieved.

I have been looking at many of the modifications discussed and see the opportunity for serious gains in operational temperature considerations.
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: Uncle Fester on May 25, 2021, 08:49:00 AM
I worked in the space industry for a few years. On one of my assignments, I had to assemble a battery bank board with thermal control. Basically, the batteries each had a heater wrapped around them and there was a centrally  located thermocouple to measure the overall temp of the board.
The battery cells were roughly the same size as a cart. So here is my idea:

Affix a heater to the tube exterior, a thermocouple to the endcap in contact with the cart, circuit board and battery in the grip/frame and go from there.

The circuit board will be quite small with today's components and utilize a micro-controller to regulate the temp.
Battery power will be the big issue here. A rechargeable cell is required for power to the mCU and heater. It will no doubt be larger than what may natively fit in the grip area. Some fitment (carving out) will be needed.
Next will be the wiring management. The heater will not be too bad but the thermocouple on the endcap will need a jack and removable plug to facilitate cart change outs. This will also means a small amount of wire will need to be exposed.

Overall, this is really not a complicated mod to build and incorporate. I suspect the project cost will be below the $50 for the DIY folks.

One point to focus on is the thermal exchange between the pistol tube and the cart. There isn't a solid bond and this will cause the heater to run a bit less efficient thus, extra battery drain.
A short term (very messy) solution would be to coat the cart with silicone heat sink compound.
I highly recommend NOT doing this.
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: mudduck48 on May 25, 2021, 03:18:15 PM
IMO, after you do all of that, you will need to read the thread on how to remove a stuck cart out of your tube. :(
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: Cables on May 25, 2021, 03:19:41 PM
Quote from: Uncle Fester on May 25, 2021, 08:49:00 AM
I worked in the space industry for a few years. On one of my assignments, I had to assemble a battery bank board with thermal control. Basically, the batteries each had a heater wrapped around them and there was a centrally  located thermocouple to measure the overall temp of the board.
The battery cells were roughly the same size as a cart. So here is my idea:

Affix a heater to the tube exterior, a thermocouple to the endcap in contact with the cart, circuit board and battery in the grip/frame and go from there.

The circuit board will be quite small with today's components and utilize a micro-controller to regulate the temp.
Battery power will be the big issue here. A rechargeable cell is required for power to the mCU and heater. It will no doubt be larger than what may natively fit in the grip area. Some fitment (carving out) will be needed.
Next will be the wiring management. The heater will not be too bad but the thermocouple on the endcap will need a jack and removable plug to facilitate cart change outs. This will also means a small amount of wire will need to be exposed.

Overall, this is really not a complicated mod to build and incorporate. I suspect the project cost will be below the $50 for the DIY folks.

One point to focus on is the thermal exchange between the pistol tube and the cart. There isn't a solid bond and this will cause the heater to run a bit less efficient thus, extra battery drain.
A short term (very messy) solution would be to coat the cart with silicone heat sink compound.
I highly recommend NOT doing this.

Yes, I found inexpensive temperature controllers that run at 12VDC. Discrete (build from parts) may be the way to go for this design.

What do you think of a soft drink type insulated cooler with the capacity to hold cartridges at 88F in heating or cooling mode?

Use a thermal blanket to maintain temperature of the cartridge only while in the gun?

May also consider a thermal mass surrounding the cartridge to hold temperature only while in the gun.

There seems to be room in the cartridge area of guns in general and the extra area around the cartridge could be space used for either insulation or thermal mass.

It may be interesting to see what nano materials could perform in the stated conditions.

Shouldn't consideration also be given at this time to climate in area this is used. For example, here in Florida I would want heating and cooling. Maine, where it is cold everyday with the sometimes exception of July 4, heating would be more than adequate.
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: Cables on May 25, 2021, 03:26:56 PM
Quote from: mudduck48 on May 25, 2021, 03:18:15 PM
IMO, after you do all of that, you will need to read the thread on how to remove a stuck cart out of your tube. :(

Specify what type of gun(s) that would not have any clearance for a cartridge with a blanket or mass modification. Would there be room in the area of the cartridge mount to modify the tube?

Another thought for a rifle with tube location under the barrel, put a fore grip there, put cartridge in the grip, use a ninety degree adapter to make the connection from straight tube to grip.
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: mudduck48 on May 25, 2021, 06:31:44 PM
I'm sorry, I should have made it more clear. I was thinking of wrapping the cart with silicone wrap. Probably get the cart stuck in the tube. :( 
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: Cables on May 25, 2021, 11:50:54 PM
Quote from: mudduck48 on May 25, 2021, 06:31:44 PM
I'm sorry, I should have made it more clear. I was thinking of wrapping the cart with silicone wrap. Probably get the cart stuck in the tube. :(

Oh no, don't be sorry.

Speaking for myself your input and suggestions are worthy.

The more participation the better.

:-*
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: jkingrph on May 26, 2021, 12:58:40 AM
Quote from: mudduck48 on May 25, 2021, 03:18:15 PM
IMO, after you do all of that, you will need to read the thread on how to remove a stuck cart out of your tube. :(

Which thread are you referring too?  I looked and the only suggestion I saw was to hot glue a rod to the end.  I cannot locate my hot glue gun so that was not an option.  I tried some very strong magnets and no go , the first one I tried drilling and that was a pain. the cart wanted to spin so holding it still  was a problem, then it was still stuck so hard on the piercing pin it took some force to get it off the pin.  I  am beginning to think I may have dry fired the gun with a spent cart in and don't know if that could be the problem, no pressure to force the pin back.
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: crossliner on May 26, 2021, 03:47:54 PM
Quote from: jkingrph on May 26, 2021, 12:58:40 AM
Which thread are you referring too?  I looked and the only suggestion I saw was to hot glue a rod to the end.  I cannot locate my hot glue gun so that was not an option.  I tried some very strong magnets and no go , the first one I tried drilling and that was a pain. the cart wanted to spin so holding it still  was a problem, then it was still stuck so hard on the piercing pin it took some force to get it off the pin.  I  am beginning to think I may have dry fired the gun with a spent cart in and don't know if that could be the problem, no pressure to force the pin back.


Disassemble it.

A Red Rock C02 user complained of some cartridges being too tight.
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: jkingrph on May 26, 2021, 05:15:21 PM
That is what I did!!
Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: 22Plinker on June 13, 2021, 06:16:23 AM
June 2021. Wally World, College Place, WA had 12 boxes of 40 for $15.46.
6 boxes of Crosman LHP22 for $6.47.
Website does not even show these as available anymore.
I bought 11 so someone else could have a are you kidding me moment?
$16 bucks for 40 12gm cartridges?  Life is good.



Title: Re: CO2 cartridges
Post by: RS-MN on June 13, 2021, 09:15:23 PM
Quote from: jkingrph on March 30, 2021, 08:58:54 PM
I just wiped the local wal mart out of 40 pack of CO2 cartridges. They only had three packs  but at $15.46 could not pass up.  Pyramid Air wants about 25+almost 13 shipping.  I was also looking for some of the cheap .22 pellets, but all they had was .177. Will check another town Friday when I visit the VA clinic

I did the same thing. They only had one a week ago, but I also picked up a couple 15 packs they had for $6.97. Today I picked up 3 more 40 packs today. That will keep me going for long time. :)