I alluded to the fact in a much earlier post that I have always been a pneumatic kind of guy (insert lame joke here). I've had Benjamin pump rifles since I was a kid and have several Benjamin/Sheridan pump rifles and pistols now. My favorite pistols for a long time have been my Daisy Avanti 717 (almost 30 years old) and my new favorite--the IZH-46M--both single-stroke pneumatics. I also really enjoy springers (my second choice of propulsion methods) but I'll leave those out of this discussion.
I've had a few CO2 pistols in the past but never for long. Recently I got a great deal on the 2300S and have tweaked it a bit. It has become one of my favorites--mainly because it's very accurate (largely due to Walther barrel and the Williams notched sights), it's now indoor friendly (LDC), and finally I get between 50 and 60 consistent shots, which is usually enough for one session. With the highly modified RB grips it's also a very comfortable pistol with good balance. The weak spot is still the trigger, even modified, but it's much better than a stock 1377/2240 trigger.
Because the 2300S has been very enjoyable I picked up a 2240 and modded it a bit and after my initial excitement I'm having flashbacks of why I've avoided CO2 in the past. I'm getting around 30 consistent shots from a cartridge. I can actually shoot well into the 40's but somewhere in the low 30's I hear the pitch of the report change along with the sound of the impact. It's not really the cost of CO2 that bugs me but the inconsistency of the shot string with *every* cart.
With pneumatic you pump x number of times and you can expect a pretty consistent result with every shot. No counting pellets. No wondering if that last miss was you or low CO2. So that's where I'm at.
How about you guys? Do you prefer CO2 or pumping, and why?
Both... but, the hold-under on shots 1 and 2 and the hold-over on the last few shots of co2 can be frustrating if you are looking for 1st to last shot consistency or std deviations .000 decimals to the right! :D
It's the primary reason that Olympic and world Class 10 meter pistol shooters have all gone PCP with regulators. (the rich man's pneumatics)
I have the same gripe of shooting an enjoyable session and hear the delay, see the pellet and get bugged. I'm in a springer burn, and a great break is to shoot the 2240, or BBs. Pumping the 1377 is a nice part of that picture. I enjoy them all, no particular favorite. RC
pumpers for me one less thing to buy. ;)
Quote from: RC1947 on August 01, 2012, 12:10:33 AM
I have the same gripe of shooting an enjoyable session and hear the delay, see the pellet and get bugged. I'm in a springer burn, and a great break is to shoot the 2240, or BBs. Pumping the 1377 is a nice part of that picture. I enjoy them all, no particular favorite. RC
agreed...now that I'm also going to the dark side, I'm STILL waiting to fill my marauder lol. forgot to order an adapter with my Hill pump and dying to start tweaking and sighting it in..now the adapter is on it's way lol... half the fun of collecting and shooting my babies, is modding them...all my crosman pistols, except for my old 1600 CO2 bb pistol (picture below), are in various stages being completed and will probably continue until I've gotten almost every part in them replaced or modified lol...
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa448/Serpentsden/Airgun%20stuff/2011-10-26_13-03-57_870.jpg)
Co2
HPA
Pump
In that order for me :)
I'm a co2 kinda guy, call me lazy ... :P it suits my needs
poi is ok at 60 - 80 +- degrees ....
I can hear when I'm running out ...
If you hook up to a tank you can shoot like .. well ... a lot ... :-*
i get a lot of 10m practice indoors w/ my 1377 #1 and CS 2300kt, but need to duct seal my trap so you dont hear the pellets bashing the metal at the back of it lol... the new breech and shroud kit for the CS and my other 1377, less noise will make em a lot more indoor friendly, not including 'neighbor friendly' lol...
I dislike break barrels simply because of problems with the optics staying true when the barrel gets moved all its life.
So, CO2 for now... maybe to HPA at some point.
What I would like to exist is an out of the box .22 or .25 that can sling 'em at 1000 fps and 850 fps respectively by way of an under lever with a single stroke. In other words 35 fpe before anything gets tweaked.
I like both and not one more then the other i like Co2 just because they shoot with out pumping and there easy in my arms and sholders i shoot Co2 more in the summer, pumpers are nice because all you need to shoot is a tin pellets plus the adjustable power level with more or less pumps i tend to use pumpers more in the winter because pumping on a hot day can be a drag.
Mike 8)
Quote from: Davio on August 01, 2012, 08:05:37 AM
I dislike break barrels simply because of problems with the optics staying true when the barrel gets moved all its life.
Ironic that my gripe about CO2 has a similar effect. If optics move the POI moves yet with CO2 you're guaranteed to have a POI shift with every cart. It's just easier to plan for.
BTW, I've been fortunate in that my break-barrels have been rock solid. My most accurate rifles.
Where I really worry about optics shift is not in break-barrels but in multi-pumps. That's where the guns really seem to take a pounding. Greg's Ballistic mount seems very solid on the Benjamin/Sheridans but the intermount things seem like a weak point in other setups. I have intermounts on a Benjamin and a Crosman. They work okay for plinking but for accuracy I stick with iron sights.
Regards!
Quote from: jdub on August 01, 2012, 05:50:22 PM
Ironic that my gripe about CO2 has a similar effect. If optics move the POI moves yet with CO2 you're guaranteed to have a POI shift with every cart. It's just easier to plan for.
BTW, I've been fortunate in that my break-barrels have been rock solid. My most accurate rifles.
Where I really worry about optics shift is not in break-barrels but in multi-pumps. That's where the guns really seem to take a pounding. Greg's Ballistic mount seems very solid on the Benjamin/Sheridans but the intermount things seem like a weak point in other setups. I have intermounts on a Benjamin and a Crosman. They work okay for plinking but for accuracy I stick with iron sights.
Regards!
I don't see cart changes as breaking the communion between the barrel and optics. Please explain.
If true, all the more reason to use 9 ounce carts! ;D
Quote from: Davio on August 01, 2012, 06:41:17 PM
I don't see cart changes as breaking the communion between the barrel and optics. Please explain.
If true, all the more reason to use 9 ounce carts! ;D
Nah, they don't mess with the optics. But *like* shifting optics they create a variable POI on the target due to the changing pressure. Both problems cause POI shift.
Sorry, didn't express that very well.
I can say that I prefer HPA/PCPs clearly over CO2, pneumatic pump or springers of any kind.
For me it would be:
PCP
Co2
Pumper
Springer
I like the ease of CO2 and besides HpA, it's the closest thing to powder burners in how you shoot. The higher quality action style co2 pistols are a blast to shoot. But I also don't like the first shot/last shots inconsistency and find them the least repeatable of all my airguns. Plus I often like to pick a gun up and shoot 20 or so rounds and move to another. With CO2 I always feel compelled to finish off the cart, even when I want to move on to something else.
My pumpers are much more consistent than co2 and as others mentioned...don't rely on anything else. But they are also the least like powder burners to me and pumping between each shot can be a drag when you're trying to plink at targets a little quicker or don't want to work up a mild sweat when shooting a bunch. Mind you I haven't tried a FT valve and piston yet...so with easier pumping...that might be improved.
Springers have that self-contained benefit and can be pretty consistent. Power is up there too and theres minimal work between shots. But the recoil is significant negative for me. Recoil itself is not the bad part, its that it's so opposite to powder burners for me I cant get used to it. The hold sensitivity really takes getting used to. Plus they are loud and even with some help on the muzzle end, the spring will always make a twang-thwack. I have only one springer in the form of an RWS 48. I hardly ever shoot it.
depends for me --- my R9 is very nice --- rekord trigger and little recoil makes it a very accurate rifle --- heavier than my C9 though, the R9 doesn't need support gear which is a plus .msps --- my C9 --- doesn't need extra gear just the effort to charge it and when it's hot ,it's not going to happen .both the R9 and C9 aren't really temperature dependent so they are year round outdoor shooters . my co2 guns are easy and fun for warm weather and during cooler weather good for indoors, though my 160 is too much for shooting in the house .so it depends really on my mood and weather .....
Quote from: eric on August 01, 2012, 10:26:20 PM
depends for me --- my R9 is very nice --- rekord trigger and little recoil makes it a very accurate rifle --- heavier than my C9 though, the R9 doesn't need support gear which is a plus .msps --- my C9 --- doesn't need extra gear just the effort to charge it and when it's hot ,it's not going to happen .both the R9 and C9 aren't really temperature dependent so they are year round outdoor shooters . my co2 guns are easy and fun for warm weather and during cooler weather good for indoors, though my 160 is too much for shooting in the house .so it depends really on my mood and weather .....
I have an HW30S (R7) with the same trigger and a Sheridan C9--two of my favorite rifles. You hit two of my favorite attributes too, self-contained and very accurate.
I have to admit that Co2 is my favorite because of the overall ease of use. Down here in Florida, temp is not much of a problem all year, with the exception of a few weeks. Even then I can shoot given the right time of day. I have shot and tested out most of my Co2's so I know when I will have reached the max shots per cart and will have a POI change.
I really like my 1701P. Far more consistent and accurate than any other pistol I have. Long shot count (60+), but then I have to pump!! I can see myself at some point down the road going to a scuba tank and when that happens, I am afraid the Co2 guns will then take a backseat in the closet... My pumpers just never get much use and I have never had a brake barrel, but that Titan has been calling my name for some time now ;)
A little off topic, but didn't Crosman make a lower velocity (around 500 fps) version of the Titan?
Rich
I always burn off the first 2 or 3 shots on a CO2 cartridge. My 2240 gets about 25-30 shots. The 2240 isn't made for plinking and tons of shots, but it more of a platform for a great pest control and hunting rig. - For a lot less money than most of the alternatives if you are willing to DIY a bit.
I like CO2 as it's cheaper (fittings/tanks/etc) and more efficient than HPA and provides a huge ease of use advantage over pumping or cocking a heavy spring. The downside is that it's temperature sensitive and quite a bit louder that other methods for the same FPS. A moderator is a must unless you live where noise isn't an issue as it's a LOT louder than most pneumatics and spring-piston guns. There's also a maximum FPS ceiling which is lower than the other three options. Not a lot, but 800+ fps isn't going to happen easily.
IMO, CO2 is a cheap upgrade - a poor man's HPA that works almost as well - for pennies. $5 to fill a mid-size tank, a CO2 tank, and an adapter plus a (device we aren't supposed to mention here that turns the 2240 into a HPA/CO2 bulk fill option) is a LOT of shots for pennies vs 12 gram cartridges. Basically you're looking at a Discovery pistol for $200 including the device, tank, and adapter.
Note - that device works fantastic for CO2, which is what I use it for. 1200psi and presto - no worries. $5 gives me a, well, I'm still on the same fill three months later. The thing is basically a 1oz Co2 tank, and I'm well over 100 fills.
edit - I have a 10lb CO2 tank (size of a typical fire extinguisher). That's somewhere around 120-130 oz depending on the fill (since you can't actually fill them 100% full). That brings the cost down to about 2 cents per 12 gram equivalent. (12gr is a bit under .5oz)) Now, the tank isn't free, so there's a sunk cost of about 200 CO2 cartridges in the mix (tank and valve/gauge), but the break-even point is around 225 CO2 cartridges.(2 fills of the large tank vs 50 cents each X a lot) I know of people who go through that many in a year.
This math also works for the Discovery if you use CO2 in it. You get an astounding number of fills off of a medium sized tank. The price to shoot drops to virtually nothing as a result, and it's a LOT easier than using a pump. HPA is nice in a Discovery, but it's also considerably more expensive for parts and the tank. You can get a CO2 bulk fill setup for just under $100 vs close to $200 for HPA if you shop carefully. That's a lot of shooting to break even. Doubly so if you're in the southern U.S. where cold and snow isn't a major factor. Yes, heat is a problem, I know, but nobody wants to be shooting in 100F+ weather anyways.
pumber4life 8)
Quote from: Plekto on August 02, 2012, 01:33:46 AM
The 2240 isn't made for plinking and tons of shots,
I think if anything it's an ideal plinker. If you're out knocking over cans. bottlecaps, etc. You're not going to notice the slight deviations in pressure that show up when you're shooting paper for accuracy. If I hang onto mine it will sport a cheap red dot and will be used for spinners, flip-ups, and those kinds of things. I'll use the 2300S for CO2 paper-punching.
BTW, if all pumpers were like that HB17 I got today I'd swear off them forever. http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php/topic,7927.0.html (http://www.crosman-air-pistol-owners-forum.com/board/index.php/topic,7927.0.html) Fortunately I was able to take my C9 and HB20 out and shoot for 45 minutes and all was right with the world again :)
If I could only have *one* pistol (I know this is a stupid game to play because no one can have just one, right?) it would be a single-stroke pneumatic. At the moment that would be my Izzy. At this point though I think my 2300S would be in the top 3 so my bad CO2 attitude is softening. ;D
Quote from: arkmaker on August 02, 2012, 12:07:47 AM
I have to admit that Co2 is my favorite because of the overall ease of use. Down here in Florida, temp is not much of a problem all year, with the exception of a few weeks. Even then I can shoot given the right time of day. I have shot and tested out most of my Co2's so I know when I will have reached the max shots per cart and will have a POI change.
I really like my 1701P. Far more consistent and accurate than any other pistol I have. Long shot count (60+), but then I have to pump!! I can see myself at some point down the road going to a scuba tank and when that happens, I am afraid the Co2 guns will then take a backseat in the closet... My pumpers just never get much use and I have never had a brake barrel, but that Titan has been calling my name for some time now ;)
A little off topic, but didn't Crosman make a lower velocity (around 500 fps) version of the Titan?
Rich
Rich, yes, the Titan was made in a 12 ft lb version for the UK and EU, and they retailed it here about a year ago +. I think ??? it was labeled as the "LP" ? Reported to be super smooth cocking and shooting, kinda like a Bronco with an NP in it.
I think I would buy one of those if I could find one :-*
Do you know about the Air Venturi Bronco? (made by Mendoza)
It is one of the NICEST $100 spring guns you will ever find. Lower power for plinking and garage/10 meter duty, eazzzzy to cock, almost no recoil, great trigger, fit and finish and shoot all day long with no sweating invloved.
PA has two versions, one with std sights and one with diopter rear sight and globe front, either can take a scope on the rails.
All metal and wood (about 98% anyway). No Chi-com junk with rust and sketchy bamboo stocks either. Here's a pic.
and there's also the superb QB78 Deluxe, a clone of the old Crosman 160. Two cart CO2 tack driver. RC
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd35/rcolbourne/QB78.jpg)
Yup, also a great shooter and actually better made than the Cros 160 it copied. Of course, Tim McMurray and friends basically force-fed the Chi-coms to get the QB guns made for American shooters with higher quality. They are far superior to most of the other Chinese "stuff". :-*